Lean Out Podcast

Sabbaticals with Liz Drake

• Dawn Baker • Season 2 • Episode 11

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In this episode, Dawn Baker talks with Liz Drake, a professional and mom who has taken the big leap of a sabbatical after 20 years in management consulting. After what she calls "multiple failed attempts at finding the elusive work-life balance", Liz is doing a reset and evaluating what she wants the rest of her career to look like. There are lots of great resources mentioned in this episode, so be sure to check them out!

Dawn's article Life as a Series of Sabbaticals

Dawn's interview with Jillian Johnsrud

Dawn's interview with Weili Gray on Dare to Dream Physician

Lean Out Podcast: Dream with Weili Gray

Great financial books:

Recommended books on boundaries:

Get in touch with Dawn: 

Welcome to the lean out podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Don baker. Are you looking for a new approach to finding authentic and sustainable work-life balance? You've come to the right. Place. For inspiration. information. and a community. community. of like-minded. Professionals. Let's get to the show. Hello? Hello. Thanks for being here. It's may and I'm doing a little happy dance right now because in the mountains it's finally spring. The deer are grazing on our pasture. The hummingbirds are back, and most importantly, the snow is gone from our road. We can drive freely now. And if you don't know why, I'm so excited about this, check out the most recent solo cast, where I talk about getting stuck in the snow on our road. My guest today is going through a change of seasons herself. Her name is Liz Drake, and she reached out to me to express her gratitude for sharing my story on the Gillian Johns rude mini retirement podcast series. Jillian is a money coach. Who's currently working on a book, all about taking many retirements and I discussed the different sabbaticals. If you will, that I have taken in my adult life. If you're interested, I'll leave a link in the show notes for that conversation. Let's define what a mini retirement is or a sabbatical. It's basically an extended time period that you take off and you could be in between jobs. Or you may have negotiated to just have a leave and then you were intending to return. To your job. You can do anything you want with that time period. You could be spending it, doing travel, developing some sort of business idea, or just basically living your life and doing the things that you feel like you miss out on when you're so busy so Liz is now on her own sabbatical, and upon my request, she agreed to share her story in order to inspire others, to continue this type of leaning out. I'm going to read to you the bio that she sent me. Based in Ottawa, Canada, Elizabeth Drake is an economist and project manager with over 20 years of work experience in management consulting. She is a wife, mother of two boys and an outdoor enthusiast with a side habit in sewing. After multiple failed attempts to find the elusive work-life balance. Over the past decade, she finally pulled the plug and resigned from her management consulting job. And is now a few months into a mini retirement to recharge and reset her path. She's looking forward to the future, but also trying not to rush to get there. In this episode, we delve into her work-life balance journey and the details on why she says she has failed attempts at work life balance. We talk about what prompted her to design this period of reset what she's been doing with it, and also the different things she's thinking about for her future. I hope you enjoy our conversation.

LD-Dawn

Liz Drake, welcome to the lean out podcast. Can you please introduce yourself?

LD-Liz-1

Hey, thanks for having me, Don. My name, like you said, is Liz Drake. I live in Ottawa, Canada. I'm in my mid 40s, wife, mom of, uh, two boys, 10 and 13. And, until, March of this year, I was in, management consulting in the transport sector. For the sort of most part of the past 20 years or so, but I'm currently happily unemployed.

LD-Dawn

We know from your bio that you had this long management consulting background and then recently quit and you're on a sabbatical. So where are you now and what are you doing? I

LD-Liz-1

Oh, um, so yeah, I, I resigned. Uh, it's been almost a couple of months, I suppose. And I'm kind of doing all those things that I kept telling myself were a priority, uh, in my life when I was working, but which I was not prioritizing, I'm really early in on the sabbatical. So things like, exercise. Nutrition walking my one of my kids to and from school every day, which is, you know, takes about an hour and a half of the day because it's a few kilometers away. I'm visiting my older parents more often. I'm doing a pottery course. I'm actually doing a certification for a life coaching course. So. The kind of complete opposite of what my day looks like when I was working full time in management consulting and obviously, um, you know, spending a bit more time with my husband cause he works from home, so yeah, really kind of catching up on, I guess, priorities that I didn't have time to prioritize when I was working.

LD-Dawn

love that answer so much because what I expected that you might say is something like heading off to a far off land or going on some sort of trip or something. But what you are describing that you're doing is really all the things that you feel like that you couldn't do before, at least to the level that you wanted. you could say that they're the mundane things, but they're also the things that really bring everyday joy. And so that's really wonderful. You mentioned in your bio that, I think I'm, I'm quoting you here. You said there were multiple failed attempts at work life balance in your past before you decided to make this change. So can you tell me about what incited you to do this? What were the failed attempts or, what was the timeline and the, event line that caused this change for you?

LD-Liz-1

Yeah. Good question. In terms of sort of what led to this, this kind of leaning out at this stage, I've, you know, mentioned multiple various failed attempts. I've taken kind of time off throughout my life. Um, some have worked out well and it's always been valuable. You know, I took a year off between high school and my undergrad for work and travel. And then again, between my undergrad and master's degree, working and traveling and between, Sort of every job I've had in the past couple of decades, I've always negotiated a month or two off between jobs, usually for travel or some sort of rest. So I, and I've always seen the value in taking that break, but you know, once I really got into, my career, probably over the past couple of years, decade, uh, leaning out kind of looked more like, trying to ratchet back on my work. So that started, after I went back to work after my first son was born, he's 13 now, um, before returning to my consulting company where I'd been for about four years. I negotiated a four day work week and it was a great setup. Because if I had to work more than four days, I was still paid for that additional work. But this was a kind of a double edged sword because it made it a little bit hard to set boundaries when things were busy. You know, I think, oh well, at least I'll get paid if I'm working on my day off. And management consulting is always busy and I'm someone who likes to do a good job. I enjoyed the work. So, you know, it wound up that it was difficult for me to take every Friday off. And, and, you know, within 18 months, I was back at full time. Then my second son was born. And again, after returning to work, I tried out the four day work week again. But more or less with the same result, I just couldn't seem to put those boundaries up to keep to four days a week. So I did, uh, leave consulting, and try a career in the federal government. Ottawa is the capital of Canada. You know, the federal government's here. So I left my consulting career to go work in a lower paying full time job as a civil servant, you know, try something new thinking the pace and work life balance would be better. The pace was slower, but I found the. Kind of bureaucracy for lack of a better word, quite challenging after working in, a lean, fast paced environment for over 15 years. So, and I even in the government, I even managed to negotiate a four day work week there, but it wasn't for me and I resigned, in under two years. and at that stage, my, my previous consulting firm, you know, I'd kept in touch with people. They'd been my colleagues for, for a long time and they were keen for me to return. That's just sounds like a broken record. Um, and I, you know, I missed the team, I missed the content. And so I agreed to go back on a three day work week, uh, that was in sort of late 2020. And guess what happened? The same results. I was more or less back to full time within a year and, you know, I just couldn't set the boundaries. And I realized like no one was going to set those boundaries for me. The work was super interesting and the days went really quickly. In practice, it just always felt like work was the priority above all else. Um, and I, I didn't want that anymore. And so, I gave my notice, gave three months notice and, left. In March of this year, kind of reset,

LD-Dawn

I can understand now the, the sequence of events that led to this. Was there any particular moment at work where you had that realization, I don't have proper boundaries and no one's going to set these for me? Was there a scenario that happened or anything?

LD-Liz-1

you know, it's hard to pinpoint a precise day, in both cases, when I left consulting, the signal for me or the feeling that I got consistently in both cases, like a few times in both cases was when we get news that we'd won a contract. And instead of feeling excited, I would just feel overwhelmed. In management consulting, you know, you're always working on a few projects at a time. They can be in the company I was with, they can be anywhere from three months to a year long. And so you've got a couple of balls in the air, but you're always thinking about the future. And so you're still kind of bidding on future projects that, you might win in a month or two or three months, and you can't control the pace of those winds coming in, but you want to make sure your portfolio is busy in the months to come. And so it's quite hard to balance. The workload so you'll have a month or two, you're like, great. I'm, I'm just at the right level of work. And then you'll get a, you know, someone to call and be like, Hey, Liz, great news. We want that job that you put the proposal in for, you know, two months ago, and the client wants to kick the meat, you know, kick off the project. Next week and it was around though when I, when I started to feel like, my heart would sink when I'd hear that we'd won the project instead of being excited. And it wasn't that the content wasn't interesting. It was just like, how am I going to fit this in? That would be the gut feeling that I'd get. And once I got that a few times that I'd be like, this will never change. That's just the way consulting is. Yeah. Another probably like turning point, in terms of changing careers and changing my mindset about work was discovering the financial independence community. That was around when I was shifting to the government. I sort of took stock of our finances and dove into some heavy reading and podcast listening on personal finance and happiness and wealth. And it really resonated with me. Um, people like, you know, Mr. Money Mustache, ChooseFI, Paula Pant, Journey to Launch, all these podcasts, I went down the rabbit hole and I'd always been a reasonably good saver. And as I learned more about sort of investing and budgeting and avoiding high banking fees, I gained a lot of clarity on sort of what, what Some of my options are, and at first I just wanted to work harder and make as much money as possible so I could, retire early, but then I realized that life is happening now and I didn't want to just stay on the same sort of treadmill waiting for financial freedom in five to 10 years. So really that, that was another turning point, like with the help of all those resources and like a commitment to saving and being a, you know, a bit more frugal. I knew that I had enough money saved up to take a chunk of time off work, to really kind of reset a

LD-Dawn

Yeah, I can understand just the learning and the realization that you have may be close to enough, but you don't want to waste the current time that you have. You want to experience life and that you have the ability to take this chunk of time off, like you said. You had the value system of taking breaks already baked into your life, it sounds like, just from school, which is very similar to me. Was there anything about the mini retirement idea or the sabbatical idea that, at this stage in your life, at this age, gave you pause, gave you, worry or, or fear that you had to overcome?

LD-Liz-1

little bit. You know, there's always that voice, I guess the fear before I was going to take the time off, you know, what's wrong with you, who leaves an interesting, well paying career in their mid forties. Is it because you're not good enough? Is it because you're incompetent? Why not stick it out? Why not, you know, rise to the challenge? All this sort of negative. Self talk or sort of shaming. Um, yeah, there was days when that's how I felt. But I suppose having given it a kick at the can and I kept sort of trying to make the balance a little bit better. And I think I realized I just had to. Rip the band aid off, as it were, um, and, I still haven't got the answer of what I'll do next, but just take some time off to, A, catch up. And feel calm and then, do that navel gazing, spend enough time to do that navel gazing and exploring, what I want to do next. Right now I have a long list of 20 or 30 ideas and they're all very different. But I'm really trying to not apply too much pressure on myself to know exactly what that's going to be, which is difficult.

LD-Dawn

Yeah, right. You're really getting at that idea that you need to be okay with uncertainty and accept that you don't really know what your next step is, but with this idea of curiosity and exploration, and you already have mentioned, Self care practices and downtime as far as navigating this period of uncertainty. But is there anything else that you have done either financially or just kind of mindset wise to try to deal with the idea that you don't really know what the future holds at this point?

LD-Liz-1

I'm trying to keep that little negative voice. At bay, and yeah, you just mentioned the finances. That's a, that's a big part of it. I think if I didn't have that quote unquote money in the bank, I'd probably feel very nervous and I'd probably feel a lot of pressure to go back in either into the exact same career. Which, I could maybe do that again and I'd have to just figure out how to set those boundaries and do the work. But I think that the financial stability is probably really the foundation upon which I could make that decision to change. My husband's also very supportive and he's seen me, you know, over the years, he's much more, calm for lack of a better word, he's, I'm, I'm the sort of, The A type perfectionist in our household, and he's much more steady, and he's always been very supportive, for whatever I want to do. Go back to work, take time off, whatever it may be, so that's also been very helpful to not have pressure from him. But yeah, it's really learning to, uh, it's too strong a word, but, not listen to the haters. There's no haters, but Not many people I know do this and, and Ottawa, like I mentioned, it's a, it's a government town. It's full of civil servants who have these golden pensions attached to their jobs. So people change departments, but, they rarely quit, when they're unhappy, the pension's so good, they feel they can't leave. So there's not many people in my circle that even like, think about changing careers. so yeah, I guess it was a financial backing and listening, listening to podcasts and reading books about people that are doing things a different way that really helped.

LD-Dawn

Exploring the different communities outside of your local community is really important for you because that local community isn't going to give you that inspiration that you needed. And yeah, they're not haters, but at the same time they don't get it at all. Sounds like, um, can you talk a little bit about the kind of financial habits and practices that your family has developed over time that helped you to have that confidence and that kind of that extra savings and buffer that made it so that you could do something like this?

LD-Liz-1

Absolutely. I guess from first principles, fortunately, I grew up in a household where very early on got the message, you know, don't waste money and always pay your credit card off in full and always try and save, you know, that was the message that I grew up with when I was going into sort of my, my first jobs in early career, which was a good foundation. So I followed that and saved, you know, moderately. Through the first decade of my career, which was really helpful. And then when I got really kind of looked under the covers and got into this, this financial independence community, the habits and the things that changed were, like really taking a look at our expenses. We'd always made ends meet, but really saying, you know, what are we actually spending per month on what, what don't we need? What could we optimize? My husband and I are both, naturally rugal ish and, and not spending and sort of non consumerism for environmental reasons. It's always been a bit of a part of our way of living, so that was really helpful. And then, so that would be on the expenses side. I just. Keeping them in check and anything that we could optimize, we did. And then on the investments, like so many people, when you start saving, you go to your bank, just, you know, your normal retail bank. Oh, what should I do with this money? And they're very happy. To advise you on any number of the high fee options that they have available, mutual funds, uh, which we did and same with my company in Canada, we have something called an RRSP, which is a sort of matched retirement. Savings plan, you know, a tax, tax advantage one. And so looked at that as well. And in both cases found ways to move those investments out of, those higher paying fees and, we have our investments with a, with a robo advisor now, so again, you think it's small, but as, as you know, it makes a big difference in the long run. So really sort of consolidating our investments into the lowest fee plan. possible options.

LD-Dawn

Thank you for explaining that is there anything that you wish you knew as a young woman starting out in your field of management consulting on that treadmill

LD-Liz-1

well, I'm, I'm still learning. If I could go back and talk to my younger self or another younger woman, it would probably be to learn to say no, which is difficult, especially at the start of your career, but, you know, try and say no and value yourself and your time. I clearly wasn't very able to set boundaries at work in terms of taking too on or worrying about things not being good enough. In reality, they usually are more than good enough. If they weren't good enough, your colleagues would tell you and you'd be out of a job. I remember frequent conversations with my husband over the years. Where, you know, I'd be worrying about some big project. Oh my gosh, I don't know how I'm going to get this report delivered. And he would say, Liz, have you ever not delivered? Have you ever sort of failed to deliver on a project? You know, has a client ever been upset with you? Or, and then, you know, I'm like, well, no, no, that's never happened. And. You know, he's making the point like it's not gonna happen. Don't worry about it. So I don't know how to do it and it's something I'm working on, but trying not to worry about things, not being good enough, they probably are good enough. And if they weren't, someone will tell you, so you don't need to tell yourself that someone else is probably going to tell you, tell you that, but again, it's something I'm, it's a work in progress and, uh, you know, recognizing no one is going to set boundaries for you. You really have to set those boundaries for yourself.

LD-Dawn

You said that earlier in this interview and I wrote it down as a quote. No one was going to set those boundaries for me. That is very good advice for everyone listening and for your younger self and for my younger self as well. Um, is there any other particular advice you give to women now listening, professionals who are feeling that feeling like you described instead of being excited about a new project at work, they're feeling dread and overwhelmed. Um,

LD-Liz-1

I would suggest, learning about. Financial independence and starting that saving and investing early, having financial stability is such a massive game changer for your life. Plus, you know, buying stuff you really don't need just to keep up with the Joneses, bigger house, latest home gadget, decor and clothes and shoes. It's really terrible for the environment. It's a waste of resources and. Producing and transporting goods results in pollution, all that stuff. So there's, and that's just one example. There's so many reasons to, to spend less. It even opens up options for lower paying jobs, right? If you're unhappy in your career, but you're sort of wed to earning a certain amount, because you have very high spending habits, you really are kind of stuck in a treadmill, but you don't need to be on that treadmill. So I'd say. Becoming financially savvy is really helpful and yeah, get invested in and explore some of those alternative communities that have a different way of thinking about the, you know, work life balance. And, um, it's that great book, Vicki Robinson's, your money or your life. That was a great one too, as a, as a starting point.

LD-Dawn

Yes, I read that early on as well. That book and The Millionaire Next Door really made huge impacts on me and my husband early on when we were young adults. So, definitely recommend that book. I'll link those books in the show notes as well. I'm wondering, as we close our interview, what you're thinking about doing after this sabbatical. What are your different ideas?

LD-Liz-1

I mean, they're really varied. I do know that I'd like to do something where I. I'm adding value in service to others, um, whether that be people less privileged or, less advantaged than me, or related to climate change, which is an area I was working on before I left, my most recent job. I'm starting to basically build the pillars of what I'd like to do. My future work to look like, I would like it to be part time. I would like it to be doing something where I really feel of value for others. I would like it to be something where I'm engaged with people on a, you know, day to day basis. The work I was doing was very interesting and consulting, but in many cases, it was, it was quite high level and seeing the impacts. You know, it would be quite far removed. We'd be advising governments or, large clients on potential change and you don't know if they're going to implement that change, for example. So it's, it was a little bit far removed and I'd like to do something that is closer. Um, but with, you know, with those pillars in mind on one side, the list is goes anywhere from just becoming a. You know, a gun for hire, uh, pardon the expression, but, you know, becoming a consultant in the same industry I was, but on a project by project basis to, using some of my consulting skills in a different setting, uh, whether that's, you know, grant writing, research, um, I love workshops, facilitation. I love organizing things. You know, naturally I like to declutter. So sometimes I think I'd like to be a, someone that helps someone declutter their homes. Sometimes I think I'd like to be a barista. Uh, you know, sometimes I think I'd like to get into financial literacy and financial coaching. Because that's really, I think such a massive way to help people. People at all, at all stages of their life, as I mentioned earlier, I'm, um, pursuing a life coaching accreditation right now, which has been really interesting. So all this to say, there's, there's a lot of, a lot of cards on the table and, I'm kind of parking that decision or the, even the actions towards that decision for another month or two. And I confess we are, you mentioned at the beginning of the call, um, Oh, it's interesting. You're not going on a big trip. We are doing a big trip. this summer. We'll, we'll be away for a while. Um, and I'm going to kind of use the time once we come back to, you know, sit down and reflect and have those conversations and do that research and figure out what I want to do because it really is a bit of a balance. You know, you can, you could do independent consulting work and be quite well compensated and work less. You know, do you do that for five days a month? And have, the rest of the month off, or do you work sort of part time in something, you know, more hours in something that maybe has more meaning to you? And, you know, I'm not sure yet. I'm really trying to use this early stage of my break to not think about it. If that makes sense.

LD-Dawn

Yes, it absolutely does. I think that was a wonderful answer, because not only did you just start listing the things that you're thinking about doing, the actual concrete things, but you started it with the fundamental first principles, which are the things that you really care about, what you value, what your strengths are in. Remembering that and breaking it down that way is what's going to help you to figure out over time which one is right for you. And yes, I definitely understand the tension between what you just said of like, I could do something that's very part time and more lucrative, or I could do something that maybe is a little bit more of a passion project. And the thing that is going to help you to figure this out is this downtime. It's the white space in in your days and the travel and without even knowing it. you will have a realization later. I'm confident of it. Thank you so much. Yeah. Yes. Um, thank you so much for being on the podcast and for sharing this with us. We haven't had a guest who is in the same exact situation at the time that, that you are in right now, share this kind of a journey with us. So Liz, this has been a great conversation and I really appreciate you coming on.

LD-Liz-1

Thanks very much, Don. It's my pleasure.

My thanks to Liz for stepping out of her comfort zone and coming on the podcast to share about what went into taking her sabbatical. I love that she's combining taking time for personal development and just doing regular life stuff with also taking a big trip. Here are my takeaways from our conversation. Number one. You have permission to take a sabbatical or a mini retirement and you have permission to call it whatever you want and to do with it, whatever you want. So many of us have been on the treadmill for so long, even since high school and have not taken a gap year or even any sort of extended break. If you're looking to lean out to reinvent your work-life balance and what your career looks like. Consider taking a leave like this in order to create the space for figuring out what you really want. As someone who has done this, I highly recommend it. I know, it seems unheard of in some professional settings, such as medicine and law, but really it's not, there are people who are doing this. I'll also link to my episode on the dare to dream physician podcast, where we talk about taking breaks and the host Whaley gray was also a guest on my show. Last year, she did something like this as well. So don't be scared to do it. The work will still be there when you return. And there are ways of working around the credentialing and things that you might be worried about. Number two. Knowing your financial ins and outs is a huge confidence booster for leaning out. We had discussed this with other guests numerous times. Liz is financial habits that have put her in a place to take a sabbatical include no credit card debt. Investing in low fee retirement vehicles, taking a hard look at all expenses and seeing what's going in and what's coming out. And also plugging herself into the financial independence community to get inspiration through groups and also listening to podcasts. Make sure to take a look at the links that I've included for some great resources on this subject. Number three. Boundaries are a very important aspect of practicing work-life balance. Liz has realized on a couple occasions that in her words, No one was going to set boundaries for me. Boundaries are a hot topic lately in the personal development space. And there are recently a number of books on this subject. I will link a couple of my favorites in the show notes. If this is of interest to you. To make it simple though. Boundaries are Muley rules that you place on yourself, reflecting your priorities and ways that you say no to things that you don't want to do that aren't in line with your values and priorities. In lean out. I have a whole section in chapter nine about creative ways to say no as well. So check that out. I hope as part of her time off Liz explores the topic of boundaries and learns how to practice them. You can make decisions and stick with them in low stakes situations. And that practice can then translate to the more important priorities. Because basically it doesn't matter how many times you changed jobs. This is still going to be an issue and you're going to be in the same place. If you don't know how to make and also enforce your work-life boundaries. My question for you today is how are you at making work-life boundaries? Assess yourself. What are your boundaries being encroached upon currently? And are you actually enforcing them? Thanks for listening to the lean out podcast. If you find these conversations inspiring and useful, please forward them to a friend and also leave a review on iTunes or Spotify so that other people can find them easier. If you want to get in touch with me, you can find me at my website, practice balanced.com, where you can subscribe to my newsletter and get updates regularly about new podcast episodes, blog posts, speaking, engagements, and coaching services. You can also support my work by buying my book, lean out a professional woman's guide to finding authentic work-life balance for yourself, a friend, family member, or coworker. Have a great day and we'll see you next time